Sign in or 
Location: Official Avatar Blog
Discussion: I have a question
Category:
Discussion Forum /
General Discussion
Share this
Iknimaya |
I have a question
Dec 22 2009, 4:47 PM EST
I, too, am just crazy about this movie, and have seen it three times in the past four days (twice in 3-D at a normal theater, and once at an IMAX theater, which is as much of an improvement over 3-D in a normal movie theater as 3-D is over 2-D, no kidding; if it's at all possible for you to see the film at an IMAX, I'd really urge you to do so). But I have a question about the motivation of part of the plot: Can anyone tell me why in the last offensive there are troops on the ground? I mean, if the idea was to drop a bomb on the sacred tree, why not just do so and leave? Why land and put troops on the ground at all, where they are so endangered? It can't be that they want to push the Na'vi away from the bomb site before it explodes, because by then the Colonel is so furious that he couldn't care less how many he kills--in fact, he probably thinks the more casualties among the Na'vi, the better. Now, I'm delighted that there ARE troops on the ground, as that makes one of the most thrilling battles I've ever seen possible, but in terms of sheer motivation, of the mechanics of plot development, it makes no sense to me. So I'm sure I'm probably forgetting or misunderstanding something, and I'd be grateful if anyone could clear this up for me. Thanks, It's great to share your enthusiasm! Do you find this valuable?
Keyword tags:
avatar blog
|
|
Evolution13 |
1. RE: I have a question
Dec 22 2009, 4:59 PM EST
Two reasons I can think of off the top of my head. First, they were still trying to honor the government and scientists wishes to minimize native casualties, and were trying to drive them away Eywa before blowing it to hell. Second, they were outnumbered and considered even the Na'vi on the ground a threat, a well placed arrow or spear could stick in the fans of the VTOL craft and take them out. I wish they'd actually done that in the movie to help drive the point home that they weren't helpless and savage despite being technologically inferior, though Jake did shove a missile in a VTOL fan at one point if I recall.
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
Iknimaya |
2. RE: I have a question
Dec 22 2009, 5:17 PM EST
Thank you very much for your prompt response. I think both points are possible, though the Colonel's fury is such that I have the impression he just couldn't care less, certainly not of the scientists, for whom he has nothing but contempt, and even for the government/corporation's representatives. But it's a point well taken. A potential problem with the second point is his amusement at the Na'vi's attempts to bring down the Dragon (I think that's the name of his ship, from which they fire the gas and incendiary bombs earlier); when he looks at their arrows bouncing off the cockpit he says, after all, "You've got to be kidding me." What's more, the Valkyrie, from which the major bomb is to be dropped, was intended to be much higher. However, I'm not at all trying to argue with you, because both of your points make a lot of sense and I'm grateful to you for suggesting them. I'm just trying to think this through. But again, I really appreciate your feedback.
Do you find this valuable?
|
EywaWorshipper |
3. RE: I have a question
Dec 22 2009, 5:31 PM EST
Indeed good points. But there is one other I might add. The Papa Dragon is the larger dropship, the troops on the ground are there for security. After the valkyrie has completed its bomb run, natives would possibly not leave the tree of souls. Realizing this, I do see the points of less casualties and ect. I believe it was put in, and folded dynamically into the action to show an origin of "Eywa has heard you!" Showing that not just creatures of the sky are going to hear the call, and fight to protect this miracle of a planet. Not only do the Nav'i realize that its so precious, the "Sa'haylu"(the bond) from as far as I can tell, is in every living organism on the planet. They can all connect with the earth. The action sequence was to show this. If you watch closely, the infantry and A.M.P. Suits aren't dropped within encendiary distance of the bomb site. It was to secure a foothold close to the bomb site, and the shock and aw campaign he suggests, claiming the desecrated tree of souls spot would only injure the native's souls even more.
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
Iknimaya |
4. RE: I have a question
Dec 22 2009, 6:47 PM EST
I think you are making a very persuasive argument, but I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. Do you mean that the troops are there because Quarrich assumes that the Na'vi will attempt to flee, becaue he doesn't understand that they, like the other organisms on Pandora, will not wish to leave the tree of souls, and instead will seek to defend it? But even if that is the case, I still don't understand why the humans would want or believe they would need a foothold close to the bomb site, given Quarrich's belief that the bomb itself will so traumatize the Na'vi that they will be rendered ineffectual. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand the logistics of the need for security. The Na'vi can't attack the airship with the bomb, after all. I'm sorry if this sounds dunderheaded, but I'm afraid I just don't get it. So please, can you explain it to me yet again? I'd be grateful.
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
EywaWorshipper |
5. RE: I have a question
Dec 22 2009, 7:03 PM EST
Now, do you remember when Quaritch said that "The Natives believe that this mountain fortress is protected by their, Deity." I think, that he is actually being quite carefull. He is going to send a scan of infantry, and of aerial. In the Flux vortex, the instruments cannot work. The ground forces could serve as ground-eye view as well, even also as keeping a perimiter around the bomb site to where they may have had future plans of creating another camp. Thus far, either of which is still unsure. It is truthfully up to you to decide. I believe, on the other hand, all the above, and then some. Mostly an action sequence to show the raw power of Eywa, but most of the ideas shown before as well..
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
Iknimaya |
6. RE: I have a question
Dec 22 2009, 10:01 PM EST
The notion of the ground troops as serving as lookouts, as providing a ground-eye view within the vortex, as well as a line of defense/offense if necessary, is the most persuasive point of all. Thanks, that works for me! (I have to confess that when Neytiri yells "Eywa has heard you!" the second time, I felt an adrenalin rush like I haven't for some time!)
Do you find this valuable?
|
Apasas |
7. RE: I have a question
Dec 25 2009, 9:55 AM EST
| Post edited: Dec 25 2009, 10:37 AM EST
I think this is a very good question and one I have also considered. I also wondered why they needed to put troops on the ground. I agree that a logical explanation in the movie would have been welcome.The explanantions above are all possible. I have another possible explanantion. It was designed as a psychological demonstration of force and to destroy the Na'vi ground forces. Before the battle, Quaritch stresses that the Na'vi are massing day by day and will overrun the RDA base. You could assume that even if the RDA successfully bombed the sacred tree, the massed Na'vi ground troops could still potentially siege and overrun the base, albeit with heavy casualties. So I believe the main objective was to defeat, disperse and preferabbly destroy the Na'vi ground forces before they can strike at the RDA base. What better time to do it when your air support is flying a major bombing mission at the same time. Also, Quaritch talks about a pre-emtive strike and "shock and awe". This tells me that he may have wanted to inflict a psychological defeat on the Na'vi by showing the RDA was superior even on the Na'vi's home ground. A decisive ground defeat of the Na'vi and the destruction of the sacred tree could have crushed Na'vi resistance in one go. Quaritch expected there to be an armed conflict at some point and believed the RDA would defeat the Na'vi. As the battle unfolded, it turned out he was correct. The RDA was way superior on the ground. The Na'vi fared better in the air, but also appeared to be driven off, depending on Jake to finish the job. Only the intervention of the Pandora wildlife turned an inevitable RDA victory into defeat. So I would say that perhaps my suggestion, together with the other ones already made above, were enough to encourage the RDA to deploy ground troops. Do you find this valuable? |
|
Iknimaya |
8. RE: I have a question
Dec 25 2009, 12:50 PM EST
Oh, man, does that make sense, both psychologically and strategically--that's _completely_ convincing, so thank you very much. The only slight modification I'd suggest to what you've written, which corresponds to some of the points made by the other participants in this thread, is that it's not the Pandoran wildlife that turns victory into defeat, but it's Eywa, who leads the animals to change their behavior--to compel the Titanothere not to act defensively and form a circle or flee, and the Thanator not to destroy anything and everything in its path (which would normally include Neytiri); this is how she seems to understand what's going on, which is why she says to Jake "Eywa hears you!" Thank you again for your insight--now when I see the movie again (and again and again), I'll understand that entire last third of the film, so I am indebted to you for that. I'd like to raise here an issue I've discussed elsewhere with EywaWorshipper, namely, I personally don't perceive the change or development in Jake that I think we are supposed to believe and feel has transpired. Sure, he has learned a lot and obviously has persuaded the Na'vi that he's good enough to become one of them, but to me he seems like, he remains, an American, pure and simple. The rousing speech he gives to the Na'vi sonds to me like a high school quarterback doing a less-than-convincing job of getting his team mates psyched up; what I find absolutely thrilling is the Na'vi's reaction to it, which strikes me as authentic. Now, I know I should simply accept that if they feel he is one of them, he essentially is, which is demonstrated by the fact that he becomes a/the Torok Makto, and both his development and that achievement have been presaged by the atokirina lighting upon him. But it's hard for me to buy it--to me, he just seems like a dunderheaded jock. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Apasas |
9. RE: I have a question
Dec 25 2009, 1:57 PM EST
| Post edited: Dec 25 2009, 2:36 PM EST
There are also other reasons for committing ground troops. The RDA did not simply hold a defensive line but were actively pursueing the fleeing Na'vi. This could have three reasons.1) To kill as many as many na'vi as possible.. 2) To push the Na'vi back towards the bomb zone where they would suffer heavy casualties from the bombing. 3) To sweep the area after the bombing to ensure complete desctruction. Even if the only object was point 3, Quaritch may have wanted to land his troops before the Na'vi air attack began. Can you remember when the troops were landed? Was it before or after the Na'vi attacked? If it was afterwards, Quaritch would be desparate to get his troops on the ground as he would be aware that his forces may be vulnerable in the air. So he would want to land his troops to avoid higher casulties. However, even if he landed his troops before the attack, It may be because he is aware that Ikran can take out the smaller aircraft and wanted to ensure there were no casualties to ground troops in the air. so he landed them early. The thing that occurred to me in the movie is that no one seemed surprised or shock when the copters started taking casualties. This could be down to previous experience or bad acting/scripting. I of course prefer the former explanation. When I mentioned the intervention of the Pandora wildlife, I was just being expedient. Your view that Eywa intervened is also my preferred take on the defeat of the RDA. Neytiri certainly says it and believes it. And that is what is inferred. However, if a viewer prefers to dispense with the mysticism, then they can. The Pandora wildlife seem particularly aggressive and may have been provoked into attacking the RDA trops who they knew not to belong there. However, like you I prefer the idea that Eywa herself directly intervened to defeat the RDA. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Apasas |
10. RE: I have a question
Dec 25 2009, 2:12 PM EST
With regards, to Jake, I actually agree with you that he is a reckless Jarhead. However, the truth is that the Na'vi probaly needed someone like him to lead them. It strikes me that the Na'vi are not a war like race. And certainly it is inferred that there has not been inter-tribal warfare for generations (Since Neytiri's ancestor, the last Torok Makto was around).So the current tribes would not be experienced in warfare in general and cetainly not experienced in fighting a well-disciplined technologically superior force. Especially one that had destroyed their home tree with no apparent effort. So someone like Jake was necessary to instill a fighting spirit in them. Considering they were desperate, I think they would accept anyone would showed themselves worthy. In the end, they were interested in Jake because he was a warrior and Neytiri saved Jake because he showed courage. Also, being human, Jake would know that he could take down the copters and the bombers which he proceeded to do. The Na'vi on their own may not have had this confidence. One final word. It is interesting that Jake's brother died, resulting in Jake taking his place on the Avatar program. Was that fate? Perhaps Ewya's influence spreads further than everyone thinks. Do you find this valuable? |
|
Iknimaya |
11. RE: I have a question
Dec 25 2009, 3:43 PM EST
I think you're right that they need him to lead them, in an informed fashion, into war, and that both they and Neytiri value courage. But I don't have the feeling that they are following him for expediency's sake, but primarily because of the sign of his having become the Torok Makto (which itself is a sign from Eywa). I like that you bring up Jake's brother, Tom, because I feel it would have been nice had he at least been mentioned again at the end, as a kind of framing device, perhaps in a moment of Jake's wondering if Tom died so that he, Jake, could play the role he ended up playing, or simply having pity and sorrow that his brother could not experience what he did, or just hoping that, like the ancestors of the Na'vi, Tom may "live on." You're right, perhaps we're to wonder if Eywa's power or dominion encompasses more than Pandora, a nice point.
1
out of
1 found this valuable.
Do you?
|
|
Apasas |
12. RE: I have a question
Dec 25 2009, 4:20 PM EST
Yes, there is no doubt that they follow him because he was chosen by Eywa. But I am sure Eywa chose him because of the way he was.The Na'vi woould only ever choose someone who would have a fighting spirit. Presumeably, each day on Pandora is a struggle for survival. A scientist would never make the cut. Probably all the Avatars that went before tried to instruct the Na'vi how to live. But they don't need that. They already know how to live in their world. Jack would have the spirit required for several reasons. He is a soldier who has been in combat and knows how to fight for survival. Also, the fact that he can't use his human legs would give him a renewed zest for life in his Avatar body. Being a soldier, Jack may feel less than complete. The Na'vi Avatar may have made him feel complete again, both spiritually and physically. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Iknimaya |
13. RE: I have a question
Jan 10 2010, 3:26 PM EST
I have another question, and I'm afraid this might be a really dumb one, but the fact is, I don't know what the term "daisy cutter" refers to. I believe Trudy uses it in her discussion with Jake and Norm about the impending battle, and I suspect it's a slang name for an inferior piece of weaponry, unless she's simply saying that the weapons they have to work with ("going up against gunships with bows and arrows") are ineffectual, lame--i.e., it's not a term for a specific weapon, it just means lousy weapons in general. Can anyone enlighten me?
Do you find this valuable?
|
Palulukan |
14. RE: I have a question
Jan 10 2010, 4:16 PM EST
i guess, you're right. "Daisycutter" is a kind of bomb designed to clear landing zones and artillery sites off the jungles in Vietnam. Since the humans were trying to get rid of the tree it makes sense.
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
Iknimaya |
15. RE: I have a question
Jan 10 2010, 5:15 PM EST
Oh, then that makes sense, since I guess what she's saying is that they (the military) intend to wipe the place clean, annihilate any and everything below them. Thanks!
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
Palulukan |
16. RE: I have a question
Jan 11 2010, 5:42 AM EST
here it is!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-82 and in Russian translation instead of "Frickin’ daisycutters" was "Sons of a *****" :-( Do you find this valuable? |
Zahelu |
17. RE: I have a question
Jan 11 2010, 6:47 AM EST
Jake's speech wasn't just a stirring revelation in the movie, but it embodied his renewed zest in his new life.Being an ex-marine, Jake's felt that his life was virtually over with his disability, but he's as determined man on a mission. Over the course of the movie, we see him as being petulant, reckless, mischievious and maybe a little bit playful, but at the point when he gave that particular speech, after experiencing the loss after loss, and with an overly handicapped battle looming, we see that Jake has grown into a man capable of shouldering the burdens of responsibility and a leader with plenty of courage and decisive calls. He knew the weakness of the machines, and with battle experiences, he knew that he has finally found that one single reason to fight for. As for Toruk Makto, the Na'vi people respected the legend, and they're respectful of Jake attaining that status. Did anyone notice that the Toruk had 'chosen' Jake earlier, when it tried to attack him during one of his earlier flight with Neytiri? Was that Eywa's calling as well? Hmmm.. Do you find this valuable? |
|
Palulukan |
18. RE: I have a question
Jan 11 2010, 7:45 AM EST
"As for Toruk Makto, the Na'vi people respected the legend, and they're respectful of Jake attaining that status. Did anyone notice that the Toruk had 'chosen' Jake earlier, when it tried to attack him during one of his earlier flight with Neytiri? Was that Eywa's calling as well? Hmmm.."hmm... interesting version... I think it was just a call of stomach. But indeed this pursuit and the story of toruk makto helped him in realizing what he must do. Do you find this valuable? |
|
Sorsa |
19. RE: I have a question
Jan 11 2010, 10:33 AM EST
| Post edited: Jan 11 2010, 10:38 AM EST
"As for Toruk Makto, the Na'vi people respected the legend, and they're respectful of Jake attaining that status. Did anyone notice that the Toruk had 'chosen' Jake earlier, when it tried to attack him during one of his earlier flight with Neytiri? Was that Eywa's calling as well? Hmmm.."There are many events like this. For example many times acting of those sacred seeds. somehow they seem to act like intellect beings. Eywa perhaps. That had troubled me days, why RDA sent ground forces? Entering territory where Na'vi would have best advantage, if they have even slightest perception about combat, especially in woods where they live. Of course Na'vi's aren't experts of modern combat or tactics because they won't wage war like us and they don't use firearms, wich forces you to adapt to new tactics. That was disappointment, when Na'vis got slaughtered on the ground. I would have expected at least some kind of information to be told by Jake. That is what i would tell to Na'vi leaders as a soldier. That would save a lot of lives. Of course Jake may hav't had chances for that, we don't know whole story. Overall acting of RDA didn't give me very human picture, so why would RDA start just before major conflict? Selfridge saw Na'vis as savages and hadn't much interest to full negotiations with Na'vis terms, but he had heart too. He hadn't problem with scaring Na'vis aways with little gunfire but he was very reluctant about raising the conflict to higher level, bombing Na'vis and terminating resistance. If you didn't notice he was indeed struggling between his personal morale and RDA. Do you find this valuable? |
