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Iknimaya |
Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 2:59 PM EST
Once again I have a question concerning the plot, and therefore thought it might be appropriate to start a thread for such issues. So my newest question is: the Na'vi take the unprecedented step of allowing Jake to learn their customs and ways, because as the olo'eyktan says, he is the first warrior of the "sky people" they have met personally, or rather, in a proximate, face-to-face fashion. That implies that THEY want to learn from HIM, and yet there is very little evidence of this, or what there is appears not to be the goal, but only a side-benefit from their interaction with him, and it is primarily Neytiri who learns new information about humans. But if the Na'vi take Jake into their world because he is the first of the human warriors with whom they have intimate contact, why then only teach him their ways and make no apparent effort to learn his? I'd really be grateful for any thoughts on this matter.
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eastern13 |
1. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 3:10 PM EST
i completely understand what you mean. The Na'vi seem to be people of great restriction and commitment to Eywa, their god in a way, which can easily be seen when they hunt and kill and when they pray to her. Also when Jake arrived the 'sky people' had been there for a while now. I think that their first action is peace then to physical action if necessary so THEY want to learn from him, but they just don't want to stray from keeping up with Eywa.
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Palulukan |
2. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 7:10 PM EST
Hmm... I think it's obvious.At first, the Na'vi didn't take the unprecedented step of allowing tawtute to learn, in both ways. Maybe it was unprecedented years ago when Avatar program started but after that they succeded in mutual cooperation until they came to disagreement about the unobtanium deposit under the Home tree. Secondly, the Na'vi didn't kill Jake not because he was the first "sky people" warrior they met, but because of the sign from Eywa by means of Atokirina or woodsprites. Remember this funny dandelion seeds? -) His marine's essence arouses some interest to his person, but no more. They barely tolerate Jake at first including Neytiri, and they started to teach him just not to let him die in the woods. And finally about your question. Jake gave an answer in the end of the film. Remember his question: "What can we give to the Na'vi? Cheep beer? Glass beads?" (This is reverse translation from Russian and I may err). The Na'vi need absolutely nothing from the sky people. Think otherwise? I guess this is the anthropomorphism if you do so. If I was the Na'vi I doubt I required any of the attributes of the human civilization. Only my interest on smth new imports. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Neytiri |
3. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 7:29 PM EST
All true, and the plain english version of the cheep beer and glass beads is actually "Light bear, and Blue Jeans". =)
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Iknimaya |
4. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 8:21 PM EST
Thank you for your reply. Actually, what I was thinking of was the statement made by Neytiri's father, the olo'eyktan. After Jake has told the Tsahik, the soothsayer/queen, that he is a warrior, the king/chief says they should not kill Jake because he is the first warrior of the sky people they have had a chance to meet personally. This is what I don't understand, because it implies--or does it not? this is the central issue--that THEY can gain information from Jake hitherto unavailable to them. On the other hand, the queen goes on to say that Neytiri will teach him THEIR ways. So this is what I'm confused about; am I misinterpreting the chief's intentions, his and the queen's reason for allowing Jake to live? Did they see this from the beginning as an opportunity to TEACH Jake, and not to learn from him? Am I making a false assumption in thinking that? If so, then that was the source of my confusion and their motivation and actions make perfect sense. By the way, I view the history of the Na'vi's interaction with the sky people somewhat differently, insofar as I believe they have always resented them, from the moment the first humans appeared, because these visitors were from the beginning disrespectful of Pandora's environment, its flora and fauna. This is why the English school fails, because they have no interest in interacting with the sky people. And therefore they have been a threat to the humans for some time. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Neytiri |
5. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 8:24 PM EST
I believe you are both right and wrong, they keep him alive to learn and to teach. They na'vi are basically at war so why not learn from one of the sky peoples warriors when they can, and in return they will teach him and make him try to understand them. Plus there was also the sign, which contributed significantly to him staying alive.
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Iknimaya |
6. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 10:21 PM EST
I see the logic of what you're saying, but then why are we not given even one instance, one example of Jake teaching them something about the sky people? Sure, he tells them that they are "very powerful," but we are shown in detail his slow and exacting initiation into the culture and life of the Na'vi, whereas we see not one scene in which he tries to tell them something about the humans, nor do they appear to expect him to. That's missing from the film, or rather, it's not in it. That's why I'm still confused.
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Neytiri |
7. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 4 2010, 10:25 PM EST
"I see the logic of what you're saying, but then why are we not given even one instance, one example of Jake teaching them something about the sky people? Sure, he tells them that they are "very powerful," but we are shown in detail his slow and exacting initiation into the culture and life of the Na'vi, whereas we see not one scene in which he tries to tell them something about the humans, nor do they appear to expect him to. That's missing from the film, or rather, it's not in it. That's why I'm still confused."True, it might be that the director wanted to focus more on the na'vi so that when it came time for the disgusting humans to destroy home tree, everyone in the audience's emotions would be much more intense and drawn towards the na'vi, and besides jake would have had to hide alot of things about the sky people due to the fact that they were pondering destroying the na'vi's home =) 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Palulukan |
8. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 5:01 AM EST
"... whereas we see not one scene in which he tries to tell them something about the humans, nor do they appear to expect him to. That's missing from the film, or rather, it's not in it. That's why I'm still confused."Please point out any sort of valuable information Jake could offer to the na'vi. Whatsoever. Then try to imagine how could you explain what the jet fighter is to the American Indians of the 19th century. The only thing I could and would tell'em - RUN PEOPLE!!! There'll be massacre!!! Run for your lives!!! And what would you answer in place of the na'vi? Maybe "Are you nuts?" They treat him as a child with dissociated personality. What kind of information would you take from such a person, not saying of he could became a traitor or a mole. And what do the na'vi do next? They're trying to cure him with their ways of psychiatry, make him SEE. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Palulukan |
9. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 5:15 AM EST
"All true, and the plain english version of the cheep beer and glass beads is actually "Light bear, and Blue Jeans". =)"Is it really a BEAR? Or my dictionary deceives me? ;-) Do you find this valuable? |
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Neytiri |
10. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 5:31 AM EST
"Please point out any sort of valuable information Jake could offer to the na'vi. Whatsoever. Then try to imagine how could you explain what the jet fighter is to the American Indians of the 19th century.relax please =) i was just trying to make conversation, your theory does make more sense, the night i left that theater i had the same conversation, i was tired of life, i wanted the beautiful simplicity the na'vi had, so trust me i know exactly what your talking about dont be angry =) 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Neytiri |
11. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 5:32 AM EST
"Is it really a BEAR? Or my dictionary deceives me? ;-)haha thats funny, Beer i meant beer lol 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Palulukan |
12. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 7:20 AM EST
"relax please =) i was just trying to make conversation"So as do I. Oh God, I've no intentions to offend somebody. This words were just my thoughts. If they seemed harsh to you then I beg your pardon. ;-) PS I'm relaxed and calm. And I'm not angry. Actually I'm kind, white and fluffy ;-) And I'm really interested in other's people opinions concerning whatever aspects of this film. Do you find this valuable? |
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Iknimaya |
13. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 10:26 AM EST
Hi Fellow Pandorans, I thought I'd chime in again. I'm very grateful for Palulukan reminding me that the Na'vi state, right from the beginning (i.e., once they've decided not to kill Jake when they first meet him) that they doubt he can learn something from them (because his "cup is already full"), but that they will try nonetheless (to see if his "insanity can be cured"). This suggests that they never intended to learn from him, only to attempt to enlighten him.Of course I agree that he has nothing to teach them. My confusion concerned the Na'vi's motivation; they might have wanted to understand the sky people better. (Jake's being the first one they encounter up close having provided an opportunity to study them.) After all, the humans have become a major, irritating, and at times even infuriating presence in their world, owing to their soulless destruction. This explains why, by the time the movie begins, the olo'eyktan has forbidden any humans to be granted access to the Omatikaya's terrain, and why Neytiri wants to kill Jake when she first sees him, prior to the first atokirina alighting on her arrow. But through our discussion I'm now convinced that they see their encounter with Jake as an opportunity to enlighten him, not to learn from him (believing, probably, that they know all they need to know about the sky people--that's why they can characterize them, with their self-aggrandizing and ignorant ways, as beings unable to learn, as having a "cup that is already full"). On another note: I'm a bit puzzled by the latest exchange between Palulukan and Neytiri, because I didn't see anything offensive in your formulations. It never occurred to me that either of you is unkind; I took the question about "BEAR" to be either an honest request for clarification or simply a joke. Anyway, I'm glad we're all calm. :-) 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Palulukan |
14. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 1:37 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 5 2010, 1:38 PM EST
I fully agree with you now. But when I've reread this thread again I suddenly came to some second thoughts. You were undoubtedly right when you claimed that the na'vi wanted smth to get from Jake. Surely that wasn's any bit of information about human warfare or humans itself nor, a fortiori, "bears & jeans" (joke, you were right again, it was an honest joke ^-) or whatever "benefits" of human civilization. There wasn't the only reason why they let him live, nevertheless this reason was self-sufficient, but there remained something elusive behind this obviousness. I didn't see the forest behind the trees. The plain answer was in film. The Na'vi wanted not only to make Jake SEE, but to SEE him. They wanted to study and comprehend his interior, his spirit, the very soul of the person they've never met before. I guess that is where their interests laid. And this was their method of conducting that, to teach him their ways so he could understand them so they could comprehend him.
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Iknimaya |
15. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 5 2010, 2:24 PM EST
Yes, yes, yes!! That's great--they want to see him! Brilliant!Btw, tomorrow I'm going to see the film with a friend, which for me will be the fifth time, which will also be the third time in an IMAX theater, definitely the best way to see it. I'm psyched! I'm aware of the fact that the parts I want to see are all on Pandora. Of course, if I were there, I'd probably get eaten by a Palulukan in a moment, but as long as I'm fantasizing, I might as well imagine Neytiri intervening on my behalf and saving me, and then of course falling madly in love with me, and and and. One can dream, or as Cameron says, one can "dream with your eyes open," 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Palulukan |
16. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 6 2010, 5:28 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 6 2010, 5:29 PM EST
"...The Na'vi wanted not only to make Jake SEE, but to SEE him. They wanted to study and comprehend his interior, his spirit, the very soul of the person they've never met before....HEIR"oh jeez, I downloaded the original version. I always like this experience watching film in source language after I've seen it in my native. It is so fascinating to reveal things missed in translation and dubbing, to discover some new nuances. It's almost like watching the film at the very first time. So I have a correction. It became more clear to me in English. The Na'vi wanted to see not only Jake, they wanted to see ALL sky people through Jake, since they haven't seen them ever before (in Na'vi way of course). Their "cups were full", the Na'vi could teach them nothing or very little. And here it is! The new opportunity! I guess it makes more sense. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Iknimaya |
17. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 6 2010, 10:57 PM EST
Exactly--I just returned from seeing it for the fifth time, the first time since our discussion, and with our exchange of ideas in mind, it was absolutely clear and obvious what's going on: The Na'vi want to see if they can teach Jake their ways, pure and simple. Apparently they think that if they can (though their experience with humans up to that point makes this doubtful), then there may be hope of teaching the others to see. Actually, there are a number of references to the fact that they believe the sky people cannot see (for example, a nice line is Tsu'tey's "A rock sees more").
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wpgsgeekygirl |
18. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 10 2010, 2:33 AM EST
It was implied that people have come in to contact before, and Grace did make direct contact with them earlier as was shown in the pictures on the fridge of the portable unit that they moved to. He said that others would not learn because their heads were too full... they believed that their reality was the only correct view in the universe and that they would not be able to learn the ways. Jake specifically says that he is empty, and because he was receptive he was able to learn and understand the ways of the people.
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Palulukan |
19. RE: Plot-related questions
Jan 10 2010, 4:43 AM EST
"... they believed that their reality was the only correct view in the universe and that they would not be able to learn the ways. Jake specifically says that he is empty, and because he was receptive he was able to learn and understand the ways of the people."Who are 'they'? The Na'vi? I hardly believe they know about the 'universe'. Humans? I suppose they did... and do... and will... That's the problem. But 'nothing is ever easy', that's why we're discussing Do you find this valuable? |
