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Discussion: A Convenient Death?
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oldgringo2001 |
A Convenient Death?
May 12 2010, 6:24 AM EDT
I think the most obvious hook for a sequel is: Who shot Tommy? And why?Let's see...At almost the last minute, Tommy Sully get's killed, apparently a mugging. And he just happens to have an identical twin brother who's a veteran Marine, a perfect candidate to provide a usable agent instead of yet another tree-hugging, profit-lowering, bleeding-heart-liberal scientist. Well, nothing suspicious about that, is there? I mean, it couldn't be planned, could it? Just the agent Quaritch needs to get intel in time to open up the Hometree Lode for RDA? And the Government(s) couldn't be behind it, even if it would justify a real war with those Na'vi savages out there on the new frontier? It couldn't be that the powers that be on what's left of Earth are thinking about re-locating, and need to solve the Na'vi problem first? Do you find this valuable? |
vanessa791 |
1. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 13 2010, 12:48 AM EDT
"I think the most obvious hook for a sequel is: Who shot Tommy? And why?Hey oldgringo2001, that is an interesting concept. It never occurred to me that it could have been an RDA plan to get an ex Marine in there to help them get what they needed to get rid of the natives. It makes sense though & is a possible plot point. I guess we shall see when JC writes his prequel novel, He said it is going to have back story on Tommy, Jake, & Quaritch too. That would be wild if he wrote that in the book. Do you find this valuable? |
Awesomely_adam |
2. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 13 2010, 1:45 AM EDT
Very interesting approach to it! Bravo.
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TxonAtan |
3. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 13 2010, 1:17 PM EDT
This is very interesting, and i didn't think of that before.I have a few counterarguments though. First, they didn't know for sure that Jake would take the job. They had to find him and offer him the position in the avatar program, and even though he would get paid a lot, they still couldn't be sure that he would accept. Seems kind of a waste to kill a scientist whose avatar cost a lot of money when you don't even know if his brother will take the job. Jake could have had some kind of phobia of going out in space, or he could've been a drunken idiot that wants to waste a way in some old appartment his whole life. I know they would've researched Jake before killing Tommy, but still....there's no way they could force Jake to take the job. Also, i've always thought of it as fate that Tommy died and Jake was sent instead. For example, at the very beginning Jake is narrating and he says that when he was lying there in the hospital after being wounded, he started having dreams of flying. So he was sort of seeing a glimpse of his own future on Pandora, because it is his fate. If Jake hadn't gone to Pandora, the Na'vi would have lost. It almost seems like Eywa brought him there, if there is any way she could have influence on the lives of humans on earth. If she is a goddess, she should be able to. Perhaps that will be explained in the sequel. I'm not saying your idea isn't credible, i just wanted to open up some room for argument about it :) Do you find this valuable? |
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Awesomely_adam |
4. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 13 2010, 2:45 PM EDT
But given the economy and lack of resources, they figured Jake would be worth the gamble. Especially to someone like quaritch with his way of thinking. Also, jake would have a new way of walking again and/or getting his legs back. He almost would be going in with the nothig to lose and much to gain perspective. Do you find this valuable? |
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vanessa791 |
5. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 13 2010, 3:58 PM EDT
OK, TxonAtan, I totally see your side & yes, that is probably more what was in JC's head for the plot. I can see someone else writing it the way the orig. poster said, but probably not JC. It truly doesn't fit with his ideas & his story in reality. But then I should not profess to know JC's mind either as much as I would love to be privy to the way he thinks, he is amazing to me. It could have gone the other way, but chances are it did not & it is more likely fate at play here & maybe even Eywa reaching out from across the universe to grab Jake & bring him to Pandora to be their salvation. I really like this better anyway... >;-)
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Awesomely_adam |
6. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 13 2010, 4:43 PM EDT
I can only imagine the plot twists that he has in store.
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JordanMcQuay |
7. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 14 2010, 12:28 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 14 2010, 12:30 PM EDT
Well, any plot worth any salt at all has to have a jumping off point. The twin brother swap is a coincidence that works.How else could RDA have gotten an agent into the Na'vi camp? They could have brought out an experienced agent of some sort, had the individual already trained to a certain level for getting "in" with the Na'vi. There could have been a way to get such an individual around Grace, but getting the person "in" with the Na'vi is slippery. How to get the individual accepted when Grace and company are no longer welcome in the village and viewed with suspicion is a real problem. The idea of leaving earth has merit, although a planet where humans could breath the air would be a great deal more convenient than Pandora. If RDA wants to get rid of the non-cooperative blue monkeys, all they have to do is look to history for ideas. The number of native groups decimated by outsiders bringing in disease is legendary. Then there are the native groups that were just killed off, and you can always find a convenient excuse for genocide, if one is needed. I definitely agree, from the RDA's point of view, they have a Na'vi problem they need to solve. By the end of the movie, that problem has just gotten worse. Do you find this valuable? |
Valdamar |
8. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 15 2010, 3:47 AM EDT
| Post edited: May 15 2010, 10:18 AM EDT
"I think the most obvious hook for a sequel is: Who shot Tommy? And why?Dear Oldgringo2001, Some say that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Devils advocate wit never the less, however putting this aside, your suggestions would make an interesting prequel story. I agree that the coincidence of Tommie’s demise does raise an inkling of suspicion. The thought of relocating what’s left of Earth’s population to Pandora by the powers that are, would be enough impetuous to organize such an underhanded assignation. However before humans root for raining and reigning on Pandora some form of terraforming would have to be carried out first. However, would the terra-forming be enough to stop the production of poisonous volcanic gasses? Why not reterraform Earth instead? Perhaps this may be more politically unpalatable or the situation on Earth is more direr than we know? In which case the decision is simple. Its either them or us. Amen. Valdamar Do you find this valuable? |
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AkGeff |
9. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 15 2010, 5:31 PM EDT
Hey Vald I think Oldfringo's comment was more along the line of skeptisism of the RDA's motives and to what lengths it would go to reach them than sarcasm.. On an even more sarcastic note have any of you considered what kind of report the little corporate lackey Parker is going to make to his bosses? He certainly isn't going to tell them the truth about how he lost their base. Most likely he would come up with a story that: The damn untrained marine they sent him went "native" almost immediately and stirred up the local tribes against the company by convinceing them that the RDA was out to conquer and subjugate them. That Jake embraced the local religious "superstitions" in order to mainipulate them to annoint himself a messiah and leader . The "Cult" he has formed is based around the communal use of a local plant called the "tree of life" that we suspect causes a drug induced sense of euphoria and ecstasy among the users during the wild night long "Ewwa" based religous orgies & ritual sacrifies (sometimes of RDA crew) that accompanies the use of the tree of life drug. The RDA employee Jake Sully when exposed to this tree of life drug and the overwhelming "sensory overload" of dealing with his Avatar body with absolutly no prior training, went totaly insane and convinced the locals to ambush our exploratory mining convoy killing many employees. Least thats the kind of report I would give if I was in the little weasel Parkers situation. People like him don't get where they are with out knowing how to CYA. Any way just a thought...
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Valdamar |
10. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 16 2010, 1:38 AM EDT
Yo Geff. How was your trip north? I agree Geff, Oldgringo has nicely couched his skeptical view in a sarcastic manner. As for Parkers message back to Earth; I suspect that the remaining RDA crew will not return to Earth. The returning space ship with hardly any crew and cargo may result in too many unsavory questions being asked, which may eventually lead to RDA loosing its monopoly rights to mined resources on Pandora. It is far easier to send a message saying that there has been a delay in the return trip due to a malfunction. This will be the official reason anyway. A securely encrypted message explaining the whole situation will also sent to RDA’s head office on Earth and to the next relief ship on route to Pandora. This tactic will allow the remaining experienced crew to regroup, rearm, and prepare for a tactical retaliation campaign when the RDA relief crew arrives. I agree with you as to the inflammatory nature of the letter that Parker will send to RDA headquarters. If RDA is part of a campaign for humans to rain and reign on Pandora as Oldgringo suggests, then Parkers message will provide the reason to start things in motion. Do you find this valuable? |
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TxonAtan |
11. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 16 2010, 1:16 PM EDT
That is one of the first things that came to my mind leaving the theater--what will the RDA--and Parker--do once they get back to Earth, if they even go back at all? Obviously they would tell a biased story, which is why i think it would have been smarter to send back some of the scientists along with the RDA. At the end of the movie Jake says "only a few were chosen to stay" and you see Max and the other scientists. They were on the Na'vi side of the war. So if none of them go back as well, the only report the people on Earth will hear is the RDA's side of things. Some of the scientists should have gone back to provide the REAL story as to what happened.Of course, if the RDA had no intention of going back to earth when they were being loaded up on their ships, then any scientists that had gone with them would probably have been shot or locked up. But still, if we look at our own history, often the loosing side really does go back to where it came from and doesn't attempt another takeover. Take the British for example, after American Independence--the British could have just come right back across the Atlantic and reclaimed the land and resources they lost to a (mostly) technologically inferior population, but they didn't. That doesn't mean that the RDA won't come back, it just means that JC may choose to introduce a different adversary in the second film, and then maybe reintroduce the RDA in the third film, when any plotting they may have done against Tommy would be revealed. However, i still don't think the RDA planned Tommy's death...I think Eywa will have a much stronger role in the next movies, and i think her true power and influence in the lives of the Na'vi will be uncovered. Do you find this valuable? |
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JordanMcQuay |
12. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 16 2010, 6:46 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 16 2010, 6:50 PM EDT
Time is the factor here, and we don't know the time frame. For Parker to send a message requires he had to have time to do so when Hellsgate was overrun. He also had to believe Hellsgate would be captured. Facing the reality of defeat is not something everyone does well, let alone seeing it coming. The writing on the wall may be there, but many, many people only see it when their noises are being ground into the wall.No doubt Parker had been sending reports beneficial to himself, of course. He would have to be careful. Send a report saying he had a major problem he had not yet contained would cast doubt on his ability to contain the problem and his ability to handle things. Successful corporate butts are good at avoiding those types of situations, or they would never be sitting on the upper steps of the ladder. Could a message be sent back to earth from the ship home? Would the ship have that type of communication boost, or would the ship be limited to communication with those within a certain distance? Even so, how does Parker make this one look good? He could blame it all on Quaritch. When you are dead you can't refute much of anything. Max mentioned Quaritch had taken over which makes Quaritch a possible patsy. That could send RDA an interesting message. Security is needed, but ex-military security may be a bit of a loose cannon. Hmmm, didn't something like that happen in Iraq with hired ex-military security? Do you find this valuable? |
Lrrtok |
13. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 17 2010, 6:17 AM EDT
"I think the most obvious hook for a sequel is: Who shot Tommy? And why?Hi i'm new to this forum. I eventually found an Avatar Forum with decent in-depth discussion on this amazing movie. Anyway... A very interesting aspect to pick up on Oldgringo. There is plenty of material there to use in the sequel. I never trusted Quaritch or the RDA from the beginning. Jake was always a puppet, it seemed like he was being left in the dark. Parker and Quaritch knew the truth... that Tommy was assasinated. And maybe by Quaritch offering Jake his "real legs" back was evidence of guilt... maybe :-/ If Quaritch does return from the dead I can imagine that very detail emerging in one of their verbal conflicts. Stephen Lang did say “You think those two arrows in my chest are going to stop me from coming back?” Nothing’s over so long as they’ve got my DNA.” Do you find this valuable? |
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vanessa791 |
14. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 17 2010, 10:38 AM EDT
"Hi i'm new to this forum. I eventually found an Avatar Forum with decent in-depth discussion on this amazing movie. Anyway...Welcome to our group, Lrrtok. This site does have more deeper discussions that some of the other Avatar sites. I belong to a few others & this one is the best in my opinion. I see that theory of assassinating Tommy to get Jake to be Quaritch's mole as a possibility, but still agree with TxonAtan that it was more likely that it had something to do with Eywa. As far as Quaritch coming back, I read that interview where Stephen Lang said that, but I can't see that as being logical due to the time it would take to make a full grown clone of him for the timeline of the story. I think that was more wishful thinking on his part wanting to be in the sequel. But in my opinion, his villain is done & I really think JC will introduce another villain that may be even more ruthless than Quaritch. I did hear the other day on TV that JC is going to be announcing the date of the sequel soon, but they are guestimating he will say 2013 & since he normally has his movies released right before Christmas, that is a VERY long time for us all to have to wait! :-( Do you find this valuable? |
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Valdamar |
15. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 17 2010, 7:33 PM EDT
I must admit I don’t know much about the strength of radio equipment required to send a radio signal from Polyphemus to Earth, however I suspect that the radio equipment at Hellsgate would be appropriate for the job. If not, it probably can be built by the science team at Hellsgate. I know that if I was in the same position of Jake and remaining companions, I would be sending a message back to Earth authorities explaining what has happened and then demand a peace treaty and a stop to any further mining and hostile activities on Pandora. I suspect that Parker would also think this. Thus as a precaution he would have to stick around in geostationary orbit, or have a satellite block any radio signal from Hellsgate to Earth. As for the return of Quaritch, I have already speculated that he can return as himself as it was his avatar that was killed by Neytiri; refer to my LOST ON PANDORA thread. This approach will enable JC to milk the avatar theme to its maximum dramatic and surprising potential. Do you find this valuable? |
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Awesomely_adam |
16. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 17 2010, 7:55 PM EDT
"Welcome to our group, Lrrtok. This site does have more deeper discussions that some of the other Avatar sites. I belong to a few others & this one is the best in my opinion.I agree that they wouldn't bring him back for the sequel more so the third installment to ensure that he'll bring more excitement on the heels of the sequel. Kind of the way that Pirates of the Caribbean revived Captain Barbosa in the third installment. It makes sense. Do you find this valuable? |
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vanessa791 |
17. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 17 2010, 8:14 PM EDT
"I agree that they wouldn't bring him back for the sequel more so the third installment to ensure that he'll bring more excitement on the heels of the sequel. Kind of the way that Pirates of the Caribbean revived Captain Barbosa in the third installment.Hey great point on the PotC revival of Barbosa in the 3rd installment! I thought about the same thing when I wrote that because you know most likely the 3rd movie will possibly be 12 years or more in the future, maybe even 25! Who knows what lurks in the imagination of our beloved Avatar creator, JC. He can & may write anything he wants to for his trilogy. However, he does try to use logic as much as possible so it is believable. Do you find this valuable? |
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vanessa791 |
18. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 17 2010, 8:23 PM EDT
"I must admit I don’t know much about the strength of radio equipment required to send a radio signal from Polyphemus to Earth, however I suspect that the radio equipment at Hellsgate would be appropriate for the job. If not, it probably can be built by the science team at Hellsgate. I know that if I was in the same position of Jake and remaining companions, I would be sending a message back to Earth authorities explaining what has happened and then demand a peace treaty and a stop to any further mining and hostile activities on Pandora.I have always respected your scientific views & posts, Valdamar, but I am continuously confused by your post that Quaritch can return because it was his Avatar that was killed by Neytiri. Quaritch did NOT have an Avatar & hated the whole Avatar program. He was in an AMP suit & he was dead, dead, dead from what it looked like to me due to the humongous arrows that were more like spears in his chest. They could use his DNA to clone him, but that would be the only way to bring back any semblance of Quaritch & with a clone it isn't EXACTLY the same personality or beliefs anyway. Who's to say the clone would behave identically to Quaritch? Please explain why you think he had an Avatar that was killed instead of him because I did not see that. Thanks. Do you find this valuable? |
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Awesomely_adam |
19. RE: A Convenient Death?
May 17 2010, 10:00 PM EDT
"I have always respected your scientific views & posts, Valdamar, but I am continuously confused by your post that Quaritch can return because it was his Avatar that was killed by Neytiri. Quaritch did NOT have an Avatar & hated the whole Avatar program. He was in an AMP suit & he was dead, dead, dead from what it looked like to me due to the humongous arrows that were more like spears in his chest. They could use his DNA to clone him, but that would be the only way to bring back any semblance of Quaritch & with a clone it isn't EXACTLY the same personality or beliefs anyway. Who's to say the clone would behave identically to Quaritch? Please explain why you think he had an Avatar that was killed instead of him because I did not see that. Thanks."I questioned it myself, so thanks for asking. I'm lost to the idea of quaritch having an avatar as well. Do you find this valuable? |
