Sign in or 
Location: Avatar Thoughts and Idea's
Discussion: The Menace From Earth
Category:
Discussion Forum /
General Discussion
Share this
oldgringo2001 |
The Menace From Earth
Nov 30 2010, 11:56 AM EST
The Na'vi may have defeated a few hundred Sky People on the ground or not that far above it, but what comes next? RDA could simply nuke the planet, or, if they wanted a non-radioactive Pandora, steer a comet or asteroid into it. They could drop tailored viruses or bacteria. If they can manage human-Na'vi hybrids, biological warfare should be child's play.Say, maybe Cyberdyne will buy out RDA and send an army of Terminator units to Pandora, sheathed in avatar-type bodies, including one with a certain resemblance to a certain California governor... Do you find this valuable? |
Canes.Venatici |
1. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 1 2010, 6:03 AM EST
It's highly unlikely that RDA would be allowed to cause planetary destruction.They are still a publicly owned company beholden to their shareholders and the court of public opinion and THOSE certainly frown upon mass murder.RDA will return if the benefits outweight the costs and will do so in force but using conventional methods, maybe even with government support.
1
out of
1 found this valuable.
Do you?
|
|
oldgringo2001 |
2. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 1 2010, 10:19 AM EST
I'm not the first one to point out that RDA could opt for more cost-effective methods of solving the Na'vi problem. Check out http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/Avatar.htm for some real-world science and engineering. You are right, of course, RDA can't sell extermination yet--but that doesn't mean they are going to write it off as an option for the future. It's pretty clear that it was a corporate decision to start a war; they wouldn't have sent a psychopath like Colonel Quaritch if they didn't want one.Even if RDA decides to shelve war, they are just a corporation. If unobtanium is so vital, the national governments with the real military power are going to push RDA aside and launch their own efforts to restore the situation--which may be what RDA wanted all along. Then, when the craters cool off and the firestorms die down, they can tell everyone that it wasn't their doing; look at the lengths they went to reach out to the Na'vi with the Avatar program? Anyway, any sequel is going to need some kind of big battle, so expect more explosions. The threat of biological warfare is already in the scriptment; Jake bluffs at the end of this version with the threat of a human-killing virus. Do you find this valuable? |
|
AkGeff |
3. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 1 2010, 4:52 PM EST
I'm thinkin even the mighty RDA still has to answer to some form of government on planet earth an they didn't get a waiver to exterminate the local population. There must be some constraints on the corporations either internaly or by earth government on what they can do on Pandora otherwise yes the Na've are screwed. Of course it doesn't mean the corporations aren't above pushing the interpretation of those restrictions as far as they can get away with. If nothing else carpet bombing the Navi would probably not be considered good corporate P.R. any more than if B.P. had just went out an bought a nuke on the black market an dropped it on it's well spewing oil into the gulf of mexico last summer. They did get away with using a huge amount of "dispersants" though.. The biggest hope the Na'vi might have is if because of the situation on Pandora the RDA looses or even sells its contract to another company & they come in and try to "fix" things...
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
oldgringo2001 |
4. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 3 2010, 8:26 AM EST
It would be nice if the new company were nicer than RDA, but any company strong enough to take over is likely to be even more ruthless. I haven't seen "The Corporation" yet but I mostly agree with its premise: Using strict free-market rules, even a corporation made up entirely of morally upright people will still always act to maximize profits and minimize costs because its ultimate responsibility is to its investors. The drop in BP stock is causing a crisis for British retirees because a lot of their pension plans have large blocks of BP stocks and bonds.Down the road, I see Unobtanium as vital for more than technological toys or fancy weapons. Probably it is key to any faster-than-light stardrive, which will be needed to save any significant portion of Earth's bloated population. Pick up a copy of "The Avatar Survival Guide" for some thoughts about how bad things are on Earth. The scriptment says that Sully's Earth has 20 billion people. Note how many of the people on the street in the extended versions are wearing filter masks--and this in a poor neighborhood, where those masks and filters for them would take a big chunk out of a minimum-wage paycheck. So, by the end of the trilogy, the conflict will change from the Na'vi versus a corporation to the the Na'vi versus a horde of refugees desperate to find a new home. When it's not just a paycheck but the survival of your children on line, all gloves come off. The trilogy has to end with some kind of compromise, and the Na'vi are not going to be able to go on as they have before. Neolithic technology simply is not able to support many people, and unless Cameron really wants to stick it to Earth, the surviving newcomers are still going to outnumber the Na'vi by several times. There is a pair of real-world precedents that are spot-on appropriate. (continued in next post) Do you find this valuable? |
|
oldgringo2001 |
5. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 3 2010, 8:48 AM EST
First, about 3500 years ago, there was a general collapse of civilization in Europe and the Middle East when glacial meltwater shut down the Gulf Stream for perhaps a century. The climate change caused crop failures and famine on a scale which hadn't been seen before. Our tales of the Trojan War are folk-tales about this time, set down several centuries later. It was sort of like all the people who could make ships turned into Vikings. Egypt was the only country in the region which managed to hold together because the flow of the Nile wasn't affected as much. And because Egypt still had food, an enormous coalition of pirates invaded the Nile Delta. They were fought off by Ramses III, the very last great king of Egypt. One of the people in this coalition were the Pelushti, and their survivors went back to sea and landed on the Eastern Mediterranean coast where they conquered the locals, mostly herders and more primitive farmers. The most primitive of these people, nomadic herders, were mentioned in Egyptian chroniclers during the troubled reign of Ankenaten: the Hapiru. The Pelushti, who had iron tools and weapons, made short work of such Hapiru who tried to fight them with their flint-tipped spears and arrows.Sound familiar so far? It should, because the Pelushti are also known as the Philistines, and the Hapiru, the Hebrews. While the Philistines were yokels compared to the Egyptians, they were like invaders from Mars to the Hebrews. The second example has the roles more or less reversed. European Jews, sick of a Europe that had murdered most of their relatives and still barred from emigrating to the United States by immigration laws discouraging everyone but white northern Christians--Protestants preferred, but Catholics tolerated since there were too many Catholic citizens who voted--flooded into Palestine. (continued in next post.) Do you find this valuable? |
|
oldgringo2001 |
6. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 3 2010, 9:20 AM EST
While Arab civilization was (and is) extremely sophisticated, its sophistication remains mostly at the top with the big shots with the money and power. It was more so in 1945-1949. Palestine wasn't the most wretched place in the Arab world only because Yemen was even worse off. Most of the Arabic-speaking people living there (probably with a higher proportion of Hebrew ancestors than the European Jews who were "returning") were illiterate peasants, sharecroppers working land belonging to rich families they never saw, many of whom lived in Cairo or Damascus, or perhaps even Baghdad. Some of them had already had their land sold from under them to Zionist settlers who'd begun showing up in the 1880s, but mostly they had made do with swamps the landlords probably had a good laugh over, getting money from Jews for land they couldn't use anyway. Israel wouldn't have come into existence without Hitler and the flood of refugees he inspired, most of whom could care less about where the Promised Land was as long as there were no Germans on it. They came with nothing but the clothes on their backs. So how did they utterly defeat the locals? Because they carried European civilization with them, the knowledge to make modern weapons--mortars and Sten guns were better than anything the local craftsmen could manage--and training in modern war. Plus, they really believed they had nowhere else to go--the local Arabs mostly fled, believing the promises that their neighbors would beat the Jews for them, and let them have the land after the Jews were gone.And what happened after that? The Palestinians have switched roles with the Jews. They are largely dispersed across foreign nations which never fully accept them They are also the most educated of the Arab subcultures; many Arab-speaking countries employ Palestinian experts to run things like businesses, factories, banks. Palestinian hackers are respected and feared by computer geeks. (cont.) Do you find this valuable? |
|
oldgringo2001 |
7. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 3 2010, 9:46 AM EST
| Post edited: Dec 3 2010, 9:55 AM EST
While all of Israel's neighbors have really given up on warring with the Zionist state, the Palestinians fight on, more effectively than their Arab brothers ever did. Reasons? They are fighting for a lost birthright; they have adopted the ways of their enemies. The Hebrews may have had God's help, but the Bible admits that King David was a mercenary for the Philistines. He learned their ways, and then he used them on his former employers.So, to survive, in war and peace, the Na'vi are going to have to learn the ways of the Sky People and become more like them. And like Adam and Eve, once they have eaten of the Tree of Knowledge, they and their progeny may never return to the Garden of Eden. If Cameron tries to end the trilogy by having Eywa returning the Na'vi to their pristine state, I will be very disappointed. It would be a disservice to the real rainforest people Cameron is trying to save. They cannot return to the old life; their only hope is integrating into the modern universal high-tech civilization while retaining and adapting as much of their culture as they can manage. Their culture may be better for the ecology, but it doesn't make them better people. Americans and Yanomami; scientists and soldiers; Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Daoists, Pagans; Space Age or Stone Age; people can be good, or bad, and, usually, both. BTW, if you want to read the opinion of a genuine Native American about anthropologists like Norm Spellman, read Vine Delorian's "Custer Died for Your Sins," one of the best tomes from the Sixties counterculture. Grace's blind eye about Norm's utter inability to impress the Na'vi in any way is a classic and extremely realistic depiction of ivory-tower-type academia: She loves the Na'vi but isn't close to understanding how they see her own people. Similar foolishness is all too typical of the most great-hearted missionaries. Do you find this valuable? |
|
okigrami |
8. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 9 2010, 12:54 PM EST
Yes...it goes without saying, that the Sky People will be back.Cameron has established that there is a very valuable comodity that exists on Pandora...unobtainium. But will future threats come only from the Earth? Pandora's box has been opened. What if other alien life forms have learned about unobtainium? Pandora is wide open to attack from predators from other worlds as well...which could be even worse than the Sky People. Maybe Jakesully and Ewya will have to come to an agreement with the Sky People...to defend Pandora from other outside threats...in return for limited mining priviledges. Hey, maybe those floating mountains contain enough unobtainium in them to be harvested without tearing up the terrain. Since the mountains are in the Flux Vortex, perhaps their scans couldn't determine this before. It's fun to speculate. Do you find this valuable? |
|
Na'vidave |
9. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 10 2010, 4:24 PM EST
What seems to me as a big hole in obtaining unobtainium, is. We see major mining pits being cut in the opening of the movie. I guess for unobtainium. Then we learn RDA sees a big depsoit of it under Hometree. & we know some part of RDA, which Grace is employed by? & others like HER have spent lots of $$ & years trying to be nice with the Na'vi. So, why then don't they just tunnel under Hometree from miles away, instead of blowing the sh*t out of it & creating a war? And what gain is the RDA getting from bull dozing sacred forest, when they show us they're able to SEE into the ground & know where the unobtainium deposits are. But the same Co. want's to be nice to the Na'vi Do you find this valuable? |
|
oldgringo2001 |
10. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 12 2010, 2:55 PM EST
Why would they mine using an open pit rather than digging tunnels? For the same reason big corps like Anaconda and Peabody Coal do it on Earth: It's cheaper, as long as they aren't held accountable for the damage it does. Why open up another mine? Well, sheer greed comes to mind, but they also might be anticipating that sometime unobtanium will be synthesized in a process cheap enough to compete with their expensive mining operation. Therefore, mine as much as they can as fast as they can while there's a market for it.Tunnel mining isn't all that green. I grew up in Idaho, a big mining state, and I was raised by an uncle who was a prospector. Every deep mine has piles of spoil outside itself, its smelter, or both, usually chockful of stuff you would rather not be drinking. Tunnels need to be braced; wooden bracing rapidly strips forests for many miles around; steel bracing requires steel, which, of course, has its own environmental costs. It's also a lot more dangerous to the miners. The real long-range plan RDA has is to employ Na'vi as mine workers; they don't require expensive life support and don't have to be shipped from Earth. Since Na'vi culture doesn't allow for that sort of thing, then the culture has to go. One thing Cameron has not brought into the story are missionaries. Isn't Eywa a direct challenge to the Almighty? Have you ever noticed how many of the real corporate heads are born again? Or say they are? Most of you are too young to remember Reagan's Secretary of the Interior, who never met a tree he didn't want to clear cut. He believed the End Times were here. So why worry about trees that were going to be destroyed by the Apocalypse in a few years? Do you find this valuable? |
|
oldgringo2001 |
11. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 12 2010, 3:06 PM EST
It would be interesting if one of the sequels dealt with missionaries sent to Pandora. They'd want to go; the only question is, why haven't they? Maybe they have; according the Pandorapedia, one starship arrives every year. The next one, in anticipation of an ongoing war, could be packed with ready-made martyrs. We could follow some of them as they discover the reality of the Na'vi and Eywa.
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
Canes.Venatici |
12. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 16 2010, 4:25 PM EST
There's the problem of public opinion that would get in the way.As ruthless as they are, the RDA still cares about their pr just like any other company and missionaries have been recocgnized as cultural vermin by a lot of people even in the world we live in.It would be a pr suicide for RDA to let any form of missionaries in.They did try to change the culture to be more pro-skypeople though.Remember Graces' school? Even if Grace wasn't aiming for it, the ultimate goal for the RDA in backing the school project would have been what i have stated.
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
oldgringo2001 |
13. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 16 2010, 5:49 PM EST
| Post edited: Dec 16 2010, 5:51 PM EST
The real purpose behind the school project (for RDA) was to educate Na'vi to work for them. Nothing would save more money than replacing highly-paid human workers requiring expensive life support with natives. The Na'vi culture proved too resistant to change. It could not have entirely missed RDA's leadership that missionaries have been also been effective in adjusting the attitudes of stubbornly resistant cultures as soldiers, and are generally better for public relations.The nations of Earth with the real military power all believe they can make short work of the Na'vi; the only thing that really restrains them is each other. None of them wants to have exclusive control of Pandora to fall to a rival. RDA has been a convenient compromise between them. But if RDA doesn't restore the situation, then those nations will take direct action, with or without RDA and their rivals. Sending missionaries and other do-gooders makes for good PR--and provides wonderful cover for agents from those self-same rival military powers. It would be nice if they teach the Na'vi how to appreciate light beer, blue jeans, and Jesus (or Mohammed, or Buddha, or Marx), but if some or all of them wind up as drums, well, we'll have to teach those savages a lesson with firepower, what? Do you find this valuable? |
Valdamar |
14. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 18 2010, 7:33 PM EST
Putting missionaries into future sequels of AVATAR will be a tricky and risky business decision from the movie maker’s perspective. The sensitivities of including religion in any off world Sci-fi adventure of this caliber challenges the human centric view of many religions (NB: After 100 years, Darwin is still persecuted) and consequently is likely to have some effect on box office takings. America’s founding fathers would probably ‘turn in their graves’ if it was possible for them to learn that corporatized religion, through the power of fear, will have a large influence in the way their country will be run in the furure.However, putting the politics of religion aside, in the world of AVATAR, religion is still around. I can recall Selfridge used the word “Christ”. Corporate religious organizations would probably rival the finances, and the power that RDA enjoys over world affairs. It may be possible that missionaries will be introduced in the next sequel and play an influencing role in the third sequel. RDA may support such a venture as it has a favorable 3 fold potential outcome: Firstly RDA would probably be able to charge an exorbitant fee for such a venture. Secondly, if the venture fails and some of the missionaries are killed in the attempt, then this would add to the list of reasons for RDA to dispossess the native peoples of their land. Thirdly, if the venture succeeds then RDA may have a compliant population of native peoples on their hands. On the other hand if RDA rejects advances by religious organizations to send missionaries to Pandora, then this could possibly be the start of a rival business consortium; and a whole new ball game. Do you find this valuable? |
|
Valdamar |
15. RE: The Menace From Earth
Dec 23 2010, 8:33 PM EST
I forgot to discuss reasons why a religious organization would bother to contemplate sending missionaries to a distant planet like Pandora. Through out our history religion has played a key role in shaping civilizations, and it will continue to do so. The religious meme dictates that it must gain and maintain members to survive. Anything that that does not support this proposition is seen to be a threat. Some religions will go to extraordinary lengths to achieve this goal. Consequently if the opportunity arose to literally gain universal appeal, then yes I think there would be some religions that would be prepared to send missionaries out into the far reaches of the galaxy to gain followers. However current human religious organizations would have to overcome the human centric view of the universe.
Do you find this valuable?
|
Kathryn_t |
16. RE: The Menace From Earth
Apr 11 2011, 1:08 AM EDT
Kaltxi....S.O.P's for missionaries as the first shock troops for cultural genocide is to challenge the spiritual system of indigenous people to the extent that those same people are provoked into a violent response. They then become "ignorant, superstitious savages" and the invaders feel justified in bringing in the troops for "security reasons". After all, how dare anyone question the "true word of God" as pushed by these often well intentioned but incredibly cruel people. My own spirituality is as close to that of Pandora as is possible to someone born without a queue on a "switched on" planet like Pandora. Our own Mother Gaia is alive, and there is an increasing number of us in the so-called "civilised" world that are rediscovering that fact. Patriarchal monotheism has much for which to answer in the world, and most people in the West are quite unaware of how deeply the old fundamentalist dogma has permeated our social and legal attitudes and structures. Now let me say that I have no problem with the core message of Jesus the Nazarene.... But I have a BIG problem with what power-hungry clergy (and merchants) do with it. Constantine started the process back in 325 CE (when the Roman Church was founded) and it has been pretty much downhill since then. That church and its dogma was the creation of a desperate, dying empire and it bedevils the world still with its archaic ideas and despotic ethos. From it sprang a plethora of fundamentalist sects (some being more accurately called cults) that spread their bigotry around the world, and enforced it with brutal use of superior technology, and in the most horrifically cruel ways. The motive? PROFIT ! they operated in their own interests, and later as the tools of the "big business:" of the day. Not so different to the RDA. The cure for Earth of the Movie, and for ours, is a LOT less people. ...... Contd.. Do you find this valuable? |
|
Kathryn_t |
17. RE: The Menace From Earth
Apr 11 2011, 1:11 AM EDT
Over a period of a few centuries...It just needs a change in world view to one more closely approaching the Pandoran one.We do NOT have the right to reproduce without limit..... We are not the only folk living on this pretty blue planet, and it would be well for us to realise that we are the "Johnny/Jane-come-latelys" here......... So in the real world, I say thank the Gods that we do not have interstellar capability....then we can only kill out own Mother, and not someone elses..... Tiyawn si atan.... Do you find this valuable? |
TallLakota |
18. RE: The Menace From Earth
Apr 11 2011, 12:09 PM EDT
"Religion" re-enforces social protocall. In an consumer society, a parental super parent God helps us feel "needed". Being made in His image encouirges exploitation of the Earth and its beings.
Do you find this valuable?
|
|
Kathryn_t |
19. RE: The Menace From Earth
Apr 11 2011, 5:25 PM EDT
""Religion" re-enforces social protocall. In an consumer society, a parental super parent God helps us feel "needed". Being made in His image encouirges exploitation of the Earth and its beings."Exactly.... it is the separation of humans from everything else by the dictates of organised religion that is at the root of the problem. xoxo Do you find this valuable? |
